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[Music]

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greetings friends of astrobiology

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welcome to a brand new episode of ask

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mr. biologists a show where we celebrate

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science and celebrate scientists my name

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is Sanjay some and this program is made

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possible by contributions from the NASA

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Astrobiology program and a non profit

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blue bubble space today we're very lucky

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to have a special guest in dr. Steve

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Vance who works at the hallowed ground

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of planetary exploration the Jet

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Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena which

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is near the city of Los Angeles in

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I'm so looking forward to our

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conversation but before we start it's

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time for your monthly background quiz

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behind me is a fascinating location and

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located on our beautiful planet the

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earth and it is your job you the

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audience to guess where it is for our

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next episode for prizes you get the

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third place winner gets the amazing NASA

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stickers here we go the second place

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will get the stickers and astrobiology

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graphic novels and the winner will get

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the stickers the graphic novel and the

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Signet org my class last month we had a

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beautiful image that Mike can put up for

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a few seconds congratulations to those

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of you who got the right answer it is

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the Bahamas blue holes those are many

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holes located in the Bahamas that gets

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flooded and they're really interesting

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because they get colonized by bacteria

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that do not depend on lights to survive

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that becomes important when thinking

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about life in extraterrestrial bodies

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like we'll talk about today on this very

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show so the third prize went to Evelina

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dual gear

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congratulations you get all the stickers

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who she connected from Garden City

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Michigan the second prize gets the

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stickers and a graphic novel

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Chad Mitchell congratulations connecting

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from Spanaway in the state of Washington

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and the winner of all three items is

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Omar al ID hi Omar congratulations is

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connecting from Cairo Egypt's

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congratulates to all of you so what is

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behind me we'll let you know next month

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on ask an astrobiologist I can say I'm

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excited about this particular episode

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Steve's because I'm personally a fan of

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the movie the Europa report that I know

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you are a scientist at scientific

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advisor for but before we get to that

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though like we like to do in this show

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is turn back the wheels of time a little

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bit and can you tell us how your

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interest in science first arose yeah so

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going back to elementary school and

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books on planets I remember distinctly

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an image of a fishbowl the size of the

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Sun showing how many earths you could

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fit in it and so I was intrigued by that

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I was also a fan of the cartoon Muppet

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Babies which I guess Bates me a little

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bit show all about the imagination and

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in the star wars episode the the Muffet

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baby kids made a star field I poked

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holes in paper and black cardboard so I

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was inspired to do that third grade for

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my report about Uranus and and so I made

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a shoebox star field and I actually had

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some accurate constellations on there

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and a little glow in the dark he's a

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plastic inside so I guess I can thank

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the Voyager mission for Earth's

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inspiring by my efforts of space very

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cool yeah I remember exactly where I was

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in 1989 when Voyager 2 passed Neptune I

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was very young boy and it's still very

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vivid in my mind so from a shoebox you

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then did your undergraduate in physics

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at UC Santa Cruz that is correct and

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yeah and like many undergraduates I

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wasn't sure exactly what I was going to

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be I was considering you know going into

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the lucrative field of semiconductor

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development but somehow that didn't

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excite me as much

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and as the idea of trying to figure out

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what's out there what is our place in

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the cosmos you know and I guess like

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many many people in our field I was

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inspired in high school by by Carl

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Sagan's Cosmos so I I had a VH set of

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VHS set of those and I watched my way

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through them so that that came back to

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me

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you know toward the end of undergrad

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when I was thinking about what I wanted

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to do and applying to grad schools and I

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had an internship of x-ray technology

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company near Santa Cruz so designing LED

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enclosures for testing x-ray tubes which

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was cool but what was even cooler

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sessions that I had with one of the

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employees there who had a master's

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degree in astrophysics and he had been

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his head you know the the plan for

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humanity's exploration of the universe

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and you know the first couple chapters

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in those discussions were basically

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astrobiology and this just happened to

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coincide with the discovery of alh84001

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the now famous meteorite that still has

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ambiguous signs of possible life from

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Mars

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which then kicked off at the beginning

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of astrobiology of the field so so

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following my regrets and that's where we

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met you went to the University of

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Washington and in Seattle and your

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doctoral thesis was in geophysics tell

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us a little bit about what you did I

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remember a big giant machine was a huge

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dial yeah well I'll get to that yeah so

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I was admitted to the geophysics program

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under the department that later became

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Earth and space science and I work with

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an advisor named J Michael Brown one of

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the many Mike Brown's of the world he's

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a famous mineral physicist so studies

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the interior of the earth and he was

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interested in applying some of his

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knowledge of thermodynamics and

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imparting for that knowledge to me in a

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way that would allow us to think about

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how the properties of water and salty

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fluids change at the really high

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pressures that were expected to occur in

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the ocean of Europa so Europe as a

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homonym Jupiter it's ocean had been just

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discovered at the time that I started

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grad school

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and we had hints that there were oceans

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elsewhere as well you know so there was

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there was a promising research direction

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in studying the chemistry of those food

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than the high-pressure and so to do that

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I built a device on wheels that allowed

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me to pressurize fluids to up to 8,000

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atmospheres and it had to be on wheels

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because it's an optical device so I

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shined a laser light through the

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high-pressure fluid like two laser

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lights and and created a pulse where

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that where the laser beams intersected

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and I and I looked at how that sound

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pulse evolved about measuring the

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diffraction of with this diffraction

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reading that I have created and so I

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measured Sound speed with light and and

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Sound speed then could be used to infer

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the density of the fluids so that was

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the beginning of our research program

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yeah the the frankenstein-looking was

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pretty impressive

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so that was a device to measure the

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properties of water or salty water under

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really really high pressures more than

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the pressures we see in Earth's oceans

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for the application of Europa and also

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other icy moons so perhaps let's take a

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step back now and why icy moons why is

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the interest in these icy moons also

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known as ocean worlds yeah well okay so

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at the beginning of astrobiology the

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mantra was follow the water we first

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wanted to just establish where there

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might be water because as is often said

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we were we find liquid water we find

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life so organisms are pretty good and

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making use of the resources that are

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available to them almost every loop of

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water environment and at the time that

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astrobiology started we didn't know of

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any liquid water on present day Mars and

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Mars continues to be a promising place

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to look for signs of past life and

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perhaps now that there's some evidence

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or subsurface water gargoyles to be a

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place to look for extant life so

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contrast that to Europa where you have

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very likely a more than twice the amount

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of liquid water that is in all of

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Earth's oceans in a moon the size of our

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Moon that makes Europa pretty compelling

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place to go if we can get to its

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subsurface water water that's under more

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three kilometres of heights and it was

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really exciting what's really exciting

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about Europa of course is that the water

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is most likely sitting above sea floor

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above Rock and we've had Alexis

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Templeton on on asking astrobiology in

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the past who is who's studying the

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process of serpentinization which is the

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process of reacting volcanic rock

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essentially seafloor rock with ocean

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water that creates chemical energy for

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biology again life that is independent

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of sun lights is that also an interest

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of yours it certainly is and yeah I can

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contrast Europa and Enceladus with the

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larger moons Europa Enceladus are in

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some ways earth-like in that at the sea

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floor of Europa you would have pressures

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that are comparable to the pressure of

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the Marianas Trench and and we think

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there's a good chance that the tidal

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activity on Europa the title heating can

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create hydrothermal systems and I'm

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interested in the reduced materials that

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might be produced in those systems that

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is materials that are rich in hydrogen

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which then provides the chemical energy

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for life and so the next thing from

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follow the water is follow the energy

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and and so yeah I like thinking of

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Europa as the earth-like target for

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looking for life elsewhere in forward

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system I'd like to talk about Ganymede

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and Titan in the larger man some point

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that's that's another set of challenges

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that I've also interested but yeah while

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I was building this giant Frankenstein

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apparatus but I wheeled around the

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hallways of our building congrat school

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I was also doing some modeling

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specifically considering how fractures

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might occur in rocks in Europa in

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particular but also in other worlds so

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the idea is that in order to have water

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rock interactions that generate this

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chemistry you need the water to get into

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the rock and so you need to know how

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fractures might form and so I developed

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this model based on some work some

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people were doing in the context of

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seafloor systems on earth to figure out

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how deep fluids can percolate and the

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simple outcome of that work was to to

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say well gee that the gravity is a lot

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lower and so the gradient and pressure

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is a lot smaller which means that you

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don't reach the pressure at which

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pressure clothes

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and to a much greater depth so in Europa

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you might have fluid rock interaction

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persisting to tens of kilometers whereas

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ten kilometers may be the upper limit on

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earth Wow very cool so by modeling you

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mean computer simulations without using

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the tools of mathematics and physics to

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predict how deep a fracture could go on

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Europa and where that water could travel

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to generate that chemical energy for

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life yes and since I can only go to

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Europa seafloor in my imagination

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currently I construct mathematical

275
00:11:39,970 --> 00:11:38,510
models allow me to do that very cool so

276
00:11:41,949 --> 00:11:39,980
we think a lot about water in the solar

277
00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:41,959
system we know of Europa the moon of

278
00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:43,910
Jupiter and Enceladus the moon of Saturn

279
00:11:47,769 --> 00:11:46,310
but there is water in more locations in

280
00:11:50,530 --> 00:11:47,779
our solar system can you do that give us

281
00:11:52,139 --> 00:11:50,540
a quick road trip across the solar

282
00:11:57,759 --> 00:11:52,149
system where you would find water

283
00:12:00,040 --> 00:11:57,769
so beyond beyond Mars there is water to

284
00:12:03,819 --> 00:12:00,050
be found and we amazingly we think that

285
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:03,829
the planet Ceres the largest body in the

286
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:06,410
asteroid belt is a watery object it's

287
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:08,000
spherical it's twice the size of

288
00:12:13,090 --> 00:12:10,399
Enceladus and it probably had of muddy

289
00:12:15,030 --> 00:12:13,100
liquid interior or a significant part of

290
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:15,040
its history if not into the present day

291
00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:17,930
the main the main ocean world's places

292
00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:19,910
where we believe there are extensive

293
00:12:24,370 --> 00:12:22,370
amounts of liquid water possibly more

294
00:12:24,910 --> 00:12:24,380
than put on are likely more than on

295
00:12:27,460 --> 00:12:24,920
earth

296
00:12:29,889 --> 00:12:27,470
the main one our Europa and then moving

297
00:12:33,250 --> 00:12:29,899
outward in Jupiter Ganymede and Callisto

298
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:33,260
much larger moons basically the size of

299
00:12:37,780 --> 00:12:35,810
the planet Mercury and then at Saturn in

300
00:12:40,689 --> 00:12:37,790
addition to Enceladus which sits in the

301
00:12:43,090 --> 00:12:40,699
e-ring of Saturn beyond that farther

302
00:12:44,290 --> 00:12:43,100
from Saturn is the moon Titan which is

303
00:12:46,569 --> 00:12:44,300
also around the sides of the planet

304
00:12:48,430 --> 00:12:46,579
Mercury so in each of these we have

305
00:12:50,050 --> 00:12:48,440
different lines of evidence for loop

306
00:12:52,689 --> 00:12:50,060
with water under the icy surface and by

307
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:52,699
under the exercise I mean hundreds of

308
00:12:56,439 --> 00:12:54,800
kilometers beneath the icy surface so

309
00:12:58,930 --> 00:12:56,449
you have you know basically Earth's

310
00:13:02,350 --> 00:12:58,940
supple upper mantle thickness of ice and

311
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:02,360
then hundreds of kilometers of ocean

312
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:05,810
so at low gravity but high pressure so

313
00:13:10,449 --> 00:13:07,130
it's weird to think of swimming around

314
00:13:12,670 --> 00:13:10,459
in this in this vast space of liquid

315
00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:12,680
water and because we don't know how

316
00:13:17,019 --> 00:13:14,470
these bodies have evolved through time

317
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:17,029
we don't know their thermal evolution we

318
00:13:19,180 --> 00:13:18,170
don't know what the composition of the

319
00:13:21,790 --> 00:13:19,190
oceans is

320
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:21,800
we know in the case of titan satan has

321
00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:22,970
the surface that's covered in liquid

322
00:13:29,050 --> 00:13:26,720
hydrocarbons some of those may make

323
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:29,060
their way back in to the interior Titan

324
00:13:32,650 --> 00:13:31,370
that we think the source of the methane

325
00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:32,660
that makes up a lot of Titan's

326
00:13:35,740 --> 00:13:34,190
atmosphere and a source of nitrogen that

327
00:13:38,110 --> 00:13:35,750
makes up the majority of the atmosphere

328
00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:38,120
is from the interior so we expected a

329
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:40,430
lot of organic in that ocean so it's

330
00:13:43,449 --> 00:13:41,810
interesting to think about what that

331
00:13:46,809 --> 00:13:43,459
those could service with the light in

332
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:46,819
the urchin there when about four turn

333
00:13:52,569 --> 00:13:50,480
away maybe Pluto so yeah so going out

334
00:13:57,309 --> 00:13:52,579
beyond Saturn Uranus and Neptune of

335
00:13:59,350 --> 00:13:57,319
moons that might have promising moon of

336
00:14:00,850 --> 00:13:59,360
Neptune is Triton

337
00:14:02,949 --> 00:14:00,860
which appears to be a captured comet

338
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:02,959
with orbiting the wrong direction it

339
00:14:05,530 --> 00:14:04,370
doesn't have the sense of things that

340
00:14:07,150 --> 00:14:05,540
were mentioned that all of the solar

341
00:14:09,610 --> 00:14:07,160
system has it's going in the opposite

342
00:14:11,650 --> 00:14:09,620
direction and so we think that it was

343
00:14:13,389 --> 00:14:11,660
captured and that capture means a lot of

344
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:13,399
tidal heating yeah and going even

345
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:14,810
further beyond that the Kuiper belt

346
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:16,730
contains many dwarf planets including

347
00:14:22,780 --> 00:14:20,720
Pluto and because Pluto has a letter

348
00:14:26,259 --> 00:14:22,790
it's orbital interaction with his binary

349
00:14:27,819 --> 00:14:26,269
neighbor Sharon it's possible that Pluto

350
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:27,829
has an ocean in fact I guess the

351
00:14:33,879 --> 00:14:30,170
interpretation of the weird heart-shaped

352
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:33,889
region on Pluto is that it's insulated

353
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:35,930
by its nitrogen at the surface and if

354
00:14:40,780 --> 00:14:39,110
you and if you then model what is the

355
00:14:42,850 --> 00:14:40,790
temperature profile going into that

356
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:42,860
highly insulating nitrogen layer the

357
00:14:48,009 --> 00:14:44,480
water underneath can be in a liquid

358
00:14:49,420 --> 00:14:48,019
phase wow that's amazing to think that

359
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:49,430
water or something we thought was like

360
00:14:53,499 --> 00:14:51,290
uniquely to earth only a few decades ago

361
00:14:57,069 --> 00:14:53,509
is probably all over the solar system

362
00:14:59,019 --> 00:14:57,079
it's amazing your your t-shirt is making

363
00:15:00,309 --> 00:14:59,029
me very envious I'm seeing Europa

364
00:15:01,870 --> 00:15:00,319
clipper there which is an exciting

365
00:15:03,759 --> 00:15:01,880
mission that NASA is currently putting

366
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:03,769
together I know you're involved with it

367
00:15:08,799 --> 00:15:04,610
could you tell us a little bit about

368
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:08,809
neither Europa clipper mission yeah just

369
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:11,050
a little bit about your permission the

370
00:15:17,230 --> 00:15:13,850
plan launches in June 2022

371
00:15:18,670 --> 00:15:17,240
like Juno that's currently orbiting

372
00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:18,680
Jupiter in an elliptical orbit

373
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:19,910
stay out of Jupiter's radiation

374
00:15:25,420 --> 00:15:22,610
environment Europa clipper will orbit

375
00:15:28,210 --> 00:15:25,430
Jupiter and fly by Europa a bunch of

376
00:15:29,710 --> 00:15:28,220
times and so in order to stay out of the

377
00:15:33,129 --> 00:15:29,720
intense radiation environment at Europa

378
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:33,139
surface will zoom by get

379
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:34,910
a bunch of data and then send it back to

380
00:15:40,269 --> 00:15:37,970
her over the ensuing two weeks or so and

381
00:15:42,999 --> 00:15:40,279
then zoom by again and by doing that we

382
00:15:45,099 --> 00:15:43,009
can build up map and so this is our

383
00:15:47,229 --> 00:15:45,109
chance to go back to Europa with a suite

384
00:15:49,929 --> 00:15:47,239
of instruments much more powerful than

385
00:15:51,669 --> 00:15:49,939
what the Galileo spacecraft had and to

386
00:15:53,199 --> 00:15:51,679
map the surface at resolutions down to

387
00:15:56,710 --> 00:15:53,209
less than a meter per pixel in some

388
00:16:00,789 --> 00:15:56,720
places and to start either magnetic

389
00:16:02,829 --> 00:16:00,799
field around Europa to understand if to

390
00:16:05,939 --> 00:16:02,839
understand the oceans composition from

391
00:16:08,019 --> 00:16:05,949
the field that's induced by Jupiter and

392
00:16:10,629 --> 00:16:08,029
typically we'll be able to fly through

393
00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:10,639
Klum's if there are pollutants at Europa

394
00:16:15,669 --> 00:16:13,100
as there are facilities that is the

395
00:16:17,439 --> 00:16:15,679
emissions of water from the surface

396
00:16:18,999 --> 00:16:17,449
we have evidence to this that there may

397
00:16:20,499 --> 00:16:19,009
be plumes there may have been plumes

398
00:16:23,349 --> 00:16:20,509
actually when Galileo flew by there and

399
00:16:25,689 --> 00:16:23,359
so we have very high resolution mass

400
00:16:28,689 --> 00:16:25,699
spectrometers to sample those materials

401
00:16:30,909 --> 00:16:28,699
directly also by studying the surface in

402
00:16:33,909 --> 00:16:30,919
great detail we can understand Europe of

403
00:16:35,739 --> 00:16:33,919
geology and the overturning time it's

404
00:16:37,179 --> 00:16:35,749
important thing for me to note that one

405
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:37,189
reason why Europa in particular is so

406
00:16:42,789 --> 00:16:40,850
exciting is that radiation it sounds

407
00:16:45,729 --> 00:16:42,799
like a bummer for life but it's actually

408
00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:45,739
a potential source of chemical energy

409
00:16:49,569 --> 00:16:48,110
for life in that you can imagine the

410
00:16:51,579 --> 00:16:49,579
radiation breaking up water at the

411
00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:51,589
surface hydrogen is lighter and so

412
00:16:55,059 --> 00:16:53,360
preferentially escapes so what you're

413
00:16:57,929 --> 00:16:55,069
left with is a lot of oxygen on the

414
00:17:01,809 --> 00:16:57,939
surface and we Italians saw signs of

415
00:17:03,699 --> 00:17:01,819
hydrogen peroxide sulfuric acid things

416
00:17:05,889 --> 00:17:03,709
that are very oxygen-rich things that

417
00:17:08,019 --> 00:17:05,899
that by themselves also don't found so

418
00:17:09,819 --> 00:17:08,029
great for life but we could imagine ways

419
00:17:11,649 --> 00:17:09,829
in which those oxygen rich products

420
00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:11,659
break down into materials that could be

421
00:17:17,230 --> 00:17:15,769
useful for life and so but because the

422
00:17:18,669 --> 00:17:17,240
surface is very young it's expected that

423
00:17:20,559 --> 00:17:18,679
those oxygen rich materials make their

424
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:20,569
way into the ocean and possibly even

425
00:17:25,389 --> 00:17:22,970
that the ocean is oxygen rich in such a

426
00:17:27,759 --> 00:17:25,399
way that it could support a lot of

427
00:17:30,399 --> 00:17:27,769
microbes and possibly even larger forms

428
00:17:32,919 --> 00:17:30,409
of life as fascinating because this this

429
00:17:34,389 --> 00:17:32,929
you have at the body ocean floor you

430
00:17:36,730 --> 00:17:34,399
have this hydrogen being produced by

431
00:17:38,350 --> 00:17:36,740
this serpentinization process and these

432
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:38,360
oxidants being produced at the surface

433
00:17:43,269 --> 00:17:40,850
traveling down and so life loves this

434
00:17:44,619 --> 00:17:43,279
thermodynamic disequilibrium of species

435
00:17:46,350 --> 00:17:44,629
in fact it's probably a universal

436
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:46,360
properties of life and so

437
00:17:49,289 --> 00:17:47,650
fact that that could exist on Europa

438
00:17:52,110 --> 00:17:49,299
makes it a very compelling place to

439
00:17:54,450 --> 00:17:52,120
explore um for those of us here watching

440
00:17:56,940 --> 00:17:54,460
don't forget you can ask questions live

441
00:17:59,070 --> 00:17:56,950
on the Signet or chat or if you're on

442
00:18:00,840 --> 00:17:59,080
Twitter please use hash tag ask Astro

443
00:18:02,789 --> 00:18:00,850
bio I will ask those questions to Steve

444
00:18:04,890 --> 00:18:02,799
in a little bit but first I want to

445
00:18:06,270 --> 00:18:04,900
focus a little bit on two recent papers

446
00:18:08,190 --> 00:18:06,280
you published one in the journal of

447
00:18:10,380 --> 00:18:08,200
geophysical research planets and one in

448
00:18:12,270 --> 00:18:10,390
astrobiology where you advocate for the

449
00:18:13,799 --> 00:18:12,280
use of a seismometer sun instruments

450
00:18:16,020 --> 00:18:13,809
that measures the waves that propagate

451
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:16,030
inside the plant or interiors to say

452
00:18:19,310 --> 00:18:17,290
something about what it's made out of

453
00:18:20,970 --> 00:18:19,320
that could complement existing

454
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:20,980
instrumentation or rather

455
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:22,570
instrumentation that clipper will have

456
00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:24,850
in orbit such as ice penetrating

457
00:18:28,980 --> 00:18:26,950
penetrating radar which don't have as

458
00:18:30,180 --> 00:18:28,990
high of a resolution could tell us more

459
00:18:34,380 --> 00:18:30,190
about these and how they can be useful

460
00:18:36,419 --> 00:18:34,390
in astrobiology yeah so one of the

461
00:18:38,610 --> 00:18:36,429
papers in the journal astrobiology and

462
00:18:41,610 --> 00:18:38,620
it's meant to be an overview so the the

463
00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:41,620
questions you might ask are would

464
00:18:47,490 --> 00:18:44,110
seismology be useful in the first place

465
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:47,500
in the way that it's useful on earth and

466
00:18:53,159 --> 00:18:49,570
so the question is would any of these

467
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:53,169
bodies Europa Enceladus Titan Ganymede

468
00:18:58,140 --> 00:18:56,650
Callisto generate seismic signatures on

469
00:19:01,200 --> 00:18:58,150
a time scale that you'd be able to emit

470
00:19:03,390 --> 00:19:01,210
to pick them up and could they be useful

471
00:19:05,580 --> 00:19:03,400
for determining what's underneath so on

472
00:19:07,770 --> 00:19:05,590
earth we know about Earth's interior and

473
00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:07,780
we live on the soup skin of the very

474
00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:09,910
surface of the earth all of what we know

475
00:19:15,180 --> 00:19:12,030
of the earth is just a very thin layer

476
00:19:17,610 --> 00:19:15,190
and we know of what's underneath that

477
00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:17,620
because of seismic measurements we know

478
00:19:21,690 --> 00:19:20,080
how big earth metallic core is and we

479
00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:21,700
know basically what the mantle is made

480
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:23,470
of and that mantle convection occurs and

481
00:19:26,669 --> 00:19:25,210
it's really important for me to mention

482
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:26,679
that these hydrothermal systems that

483
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:28,330
we're talking about on earth are driven

484
00:19:31,230 --> 00:19:30,010
by Earth's internal heat and the

485
00:19:32,940 --> 00:19:31,240
composition of those systems is

486
00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:32,950
determined by the interior activity or

487
00:19:39,570 --> 00:19:38,080
hurt so this student honor is by

488
00:19:41,460 --> 00:19:39,580
permission of all these activities that

489
00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:41,470
are happening inside of her and so

490
00:19:46,140 --> 00:19:43,600
understanding Earth's affability is

491
00:19:48,690 --> 00:19:46,150
enabled by seismology and so in a

492
00:19:50,730 --> 00:19:48,700
similar way because everything that's of

493
00:19:53,370 --> 00:19:50,740
interest for life where the like would

494
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:53,380
be in these ocean worlds is in the

495
00:19:57,750 --> 00:19:55,570
interiors in the ocean we need a way to

496
00:20:00,180 --> 00:19:57,760
peer into the interior and understand

497
00:20:01,740 --> 00:20:00,190
what's happening so

498
00:20:04,290 --> 00:20:01,750
so getting back to the first question

499
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:04,300
about seismology the answer to whether

500
00:20:10,169 --> 00:20:07,330
there could be seismic sources seems to

501
00:20:12,299 --> 00:20:10,179
be a strong yes the reason I feel

502
00:20:14,790 --> 00:20:12,309
confident about this is that the Apollo

503
00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:14,800
astronauts put seismometers on the moon

504
00:20:19,020 --> 00:20:17,140
so there are still seismometers on the

505
00:20:21,419 --> 00:20:19,030
moon albeit really low resolution of

506
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:21,429
seismometers but from the first instance

507
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:23,290
the time that pedometers were put down a

508
00:20:28,010 --> 00:20:25,510
continuous background of seismic norms

509
00:20:31,950 --> 00:20:28,020
was detected but our movement is humming

510
00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:31,960
because of its it's flexing from tidal

511
00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:35,200
tidal activity so the strength of the

512
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:36,700
title signal on the moon are correlated

513
00:20:43,049 --> 00:20:41,290
with the title the title cycle and and

514
00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:43,059
so if you think about the likely tidal

515
00:20:48,660 --> 00:20:46,510
energy on Europa its many factors more

516
00:20:51,570 --> 00:20:48,670
than it is on the moon and so just on

517
00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:51,580
that basis you would expect for seismic

518
00:20:55,799 --> 00:20:54,190
activity and you can add to that the

519
00:20:57,570 --> 00:20:55,809
fact that Europa has a thin ice shell

520
00:21:00,570 --> 00:20:57,580
sitting on an ocean so it's free to move

521
00:21:03,930 --> 00:21:00,580
and the ice is more likely to fracture

522
00:21:05,730 --> 00:21:03,940
or easily than the rock so we should

523
00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:05,740
expect that fracturing within the ice

524
00:21:10,260 --> 00:21:07,809
should be a source of cytoplasmic

525
00:21:12,060 --> 00:21:10,270
information we could use that how thick

526
00:21:14,820 --> 00:21:12,070
the ice is also what is the composition

527
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:14,830
of the ice so many different ways what

528
00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:17,130
are the what is the working of the ice

529
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:20,110
in addition to that there there are

530
00:21:24,450 --> 00:21:21,610
suggestions that there might be fluids

531
00:21:26,669 --> 00:21:24,460
within the ice and we have examples of

532
00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:26,679
this sort of behaviour in Antarctica in

533
00:21:31,740 --> 00:21:30,190
Greenland where you have lakes that form

534
00:21:33,690 --> 00:21:31,750
at the surface of the ice that due to

535
00:21:35,310 --> 00:21:33,700
eating from the Sun you wouldn't have

536
00:21:37,410 --> 00:21:35,320
that happening at Europa where you kind

537
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:37,420
of other factors materials within the

538
00:21:42,330 --> 00:21:40,450
ice helping the ice to melt and you can

539
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:42,340
use seismic signals to listen to the

540
00:21:48,180 --> 00:21:45,250
fluids flowing through the ice we also

541
00:21:50,370 --> 00:21:48,190
think that as the ocean is churning

542
00:21:52,290 --> 00:21:50,380
underneath the ice we might be able to

543
00:21:54,450 --> 00:21:52,300
hear internal waves breaking against the

544
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:54,460
ice as we've modeled some of that in

545
00:21:58,860 --> 00:21:56,050
related papers for the ones that you

546
00:22:01,320 --> 00:21:58,870
described yeah you can have sounds of

547
00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:01,330
Europa that we've modeled using our

548
00:22:06,690 --> 00:22:04,660
computers and you know I'm excited from

549
00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:06,700
my foundational work at the grad student

550
00:22:11,310 --> 00:22:09,460
in whether we can use seismic signals

551
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:11,320
determine what is the composition of the

552
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:13,010
ocean so you can imagine

553
00:22:17,830 --> 00:22:16,130
magnesium sulfate rich ocean would have

554
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:17,840
a different seismic signature than a

555
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:19,730
sodium chloride rich ocean and we're

556
00:22:25,450 --> 00:22:21,650
measuring those sound speed properties

557
00:22:26,770 --> 00:22:25,460
directly in the lab so it's like you're

558
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:26,780
a doctor and putting like a stethoscope

559
00:22:30,490 --> 00:22:28,970
on the planet and listening to the

560
00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:30,500
planet's heartbeat to tell its health

561
00:22:34,150 --> 00:22:31,310
and what it's up to

562
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:34,160
that's so cool so and you know you can

563
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:35,690
imagine having a seismic network and

564
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:38,090
being a doctor plating an ultrasound to

565
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:41,330
listen for the baby kicking that's a

566
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:44,320
great analogy so ocean worlds are also

567
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:47,840
interesting analogues to exoplanets

568
00:22:51,850 --> 00:22:49,610
right planets that are orbiting far away

569
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:51,860
from our Sun could you tell us a little

570
00:22:55,570 --> 00:22:54,170
bit about the weirdnesses that ocean

571
00:22:58,300 --> 00:22:55,580
worlds have in our solar system and how

572
00:22:59,440 --> 00:22:58,310
to think about dozes exoplanets yeah I

573
00:23:00,940 --> 00:22:59,450
think you know I think one of the most

574
00:23:03,220 --> 00:23:00,950
exciting parts of being in

575
00:23:05,290 --> 00:23:03,230
astrobiologists currently is thinking

576
00:23:06,670 --> 00:23:05,300
about the prospects for finding like in

577
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:06,680
our solar system and where those places

578
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:08,090
might being there are many differences

579
00:23:11,950 --> 00:23:09,710
that we're considering you know like

580
00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:11,960
past life on Mars life in ocean worlds

581
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:14,510
it's interesting to see this field

582
00:23:18,340 --> 00:23:15,770
developing over the time that you and I

583
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:18,350
have been professionals at the same time

584
00:23:22,330 --> 00:23:20,930
that exoplanets are coming into their

585
00:23:23,620 --> 00:23:22,340
own as a field the term ends with

586
00:23:25,450 --> 00:23:23,630
planets isn't either really all the

587
00:23:26,350 --> 00:23:25,460
mixture of solar planets when we first

588
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:26,360
started grad school and that was a

589
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:28,850
mouthful so it's nice that things are

590
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:30,890
getting a little more streamlined but

591
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:32,210
you know it's understandable that the

592
00:23:37,330 --> 00:23:33,650
search there is focused mainly on

593
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:37,340
finding earth 2.0 like we have as we

594
00:23:41,110 --> 00:23:38,810
have a good chance of doing that in our

595
00:23:42,730 --> 00:23:41,120
lifetimes but I think there's a good

596
00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:42,740
reason to think that there will be a far

597
00:23:47,950 --> 00:23:46,130
greater abundance of planets that are

598
00:23:50,140 --> 00:23:47,960
roughly earth sized and are covered in

599
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:50,150
water maybe they're farther away from

600
00:23:56,290 --> 00:23:54,650
their parent star and are more Ganymede

601
00:23:58,660 --> 00:23:56,300
light or Europa light

602
00:24:00,820 --> 00:23:58,670
I think that super Ganymede's are

603
00:24:04,150 --> 00:24:00,830
actually a really important thing to

604
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:04,160
consider or super titans worlds that

605
00:24:08,650 --> 00:24:06,530
have you know the reducing atmosphere

606
00:24:11,170 --> 00:24:08,660
but then a icy surface and ocean

607
00:24:13,750 --> 00:24:11,180
underneath and a an important thing

608
00:24:15,940 --> 00:24:13,760
there and thinking about earth sized

609
00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:15,950
planets that are covered in water is

610
00:24:21,370 --> 00:24:18,110
that for an earth-sized planet if you

611
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:21,380
had you know tens 800 kilometres of

612
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:24,170
ocean the pressures at the bottom of the

613
00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:26,330
ocean would be so high that you create a

614
00:24:29,909 --> 00:24:26,809
different

615
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:29,919
days of ice so-called high-pressure Isis

616
00:24:34,810 --> 00:24:32,690
there are many of them the ones that I'm

617
00:24:38,230 --> 00:24:34,820
most concerned about are ice three five

618
00:24:40,029 --> 00:24:38,240
and six the Roman numerals applied to

619
00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:40,039
the ice phase is really just no

620
00:24:44,529 --> 00:24:42,529
different crystallographic structure so

621
00:24:46,930 --> 00:24:44,539
you can think of the familiar ice that

622
00:24:50,110 --> 00:24:46,940
we put in our drinks that we skate on

623
00:24:52,389 --> 00:24:50,120
it's called one H the H is for hexagonal

624
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:52,399
so it's a it's a hexagonal structure of

625
00:24:58,149 --> 00:24:55,850
ice that has a certain figuration of the

626
00:25:01,570 --> 00:24:58,159
way the atoms make up the crystalline

627
00:25:03,970 --> 00:25:01,580
matrix these other ice phases are more

628
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:03,980
compact so high pressures the molecules

629
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:06,610
are convinced to form a more compressed

630
00:25:13,299 --> 00:25:10,490
state because that kept a lower energy

631
00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:13,309
state at those high pressures and so

632
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:15,049
being more compressed means that these

633
00:25:19,210 --> 00:25:16,730
ice phases are denser than liquid water

634
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:19,220
and so they sink as need to make these

635
00:25:24,669 --> 00:25:22,330
in the lab and you can see them sink and

636
00:25:27,549 --> 00:25:24,679
there's been some some great works and

637
00:25:30,129 --> 00:25:27,559
modeling work recently looking at the

638
00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:30,139
rheological properties that is how these

639
00:25:34,149 --> 00:25:33,289
Isis flow how viscous they are at

640
00:25:35,980 --> 00:25:34,159
different temperature and pressure

641
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:35,990
conditions making available information

642
00:25:40,779 --> 00:25:38,690
on that and then consider followed

643
00:25:42,970 --> 00:25:40,789
section looks like considering the role

644
00:25:45,789 --> 00:25:42,980
of melting in those ices and you can

645
00:25:47,499 --> 00:25:45,799
think of these thick high-pressure ice

646
00:25:48,869 --> 00:25:47,509
layers in ganymede for hundreds of

647
00:25:52,029 --> 00:25:48,879
fathers of id6

648
00:25:53,499 --> 00:25:52,039
as places that are that are active on

649
00:25:55,570 --> 00:25:53,509
our very pretty shortly logical time

650
00:25:58,239 --> 00:25:55,580
scales and move fluids around and you

651
00:26:00,519 --> 00:25:58,249
can ask whether there might be a in

652
00:26:02,259 --> 00:26:00,529
ocean underneath the high-pressure i'ts

653
00:26:04,029 --> 00:26:02,269
in addition to the the ocean on top of

654
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:04,039
the high pressure Heights it's a part of

655
00:26:09,399 --> 00:26:07,369
our considering salts pointing out that

656
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:09,409
when you add salt you make the liquids

657
00:26:12,249 --> 00:26:10,610
more dense and liquids are more

658
00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:12,259
compressible so you can actually create

659
00:26:15,549 --> 00:26:14,480
fluids that are you can create salty

660
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:15,559
fluids that are denser than high

661
00:26:18,909 --> 00:26:17,570
pressure ice so you might have a dilute

662
00:26:21,820 --> 00:26:18,919
ocean on top of the high pressure ice

663
00:26:23,649 --> 00:26:21,830
and a salty ocean underneath so we're

664
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:23,659
gathering those data very actively I

665
00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:25,369
continue to work with we group up in

666
00:26:28,239 --> 00:26:26,809
Seattle and we've got two really

667
00:26:31,629 --> 00:26:28,249
talented postdocs currently working with

668
00:26:34,180 --> 00:26:31,639
us gathering these data so we can put

669
00:26:35,529 --> 00:26:34,190
those into models to think about under

670
00:26:39,879 --> 00:26:35,539
what conditions you might have layered

671
00:26:40,660 --> 00:26:39,889
oceans and I like to say you think of

672
00:26:44,140 --> 00:26:40,670
the

673
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:44,150
habitability scenario in which you have

674
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:48,770
ice ocean ice as a sandwich ocean the

675
00:26:53,740 --> 00:26:50,510
layer at ocean we have multiple local

676
00:26:55,660 --> 00:26:53,750
illusions is a Dagwood sandwich so for

677
00:26:58,960 --> 00:26:55,670
those not familiar with old comics

678
00:27:01,870 --> 00:26:58,970
Dagwood was a zany guy who like to make

679
00:27:03,630 --> 00:27:01,880
really tall psycho to just you know read

680
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:03,640
me Freddie

681
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:10,010
so why is why is ice ocean ice less

682
00:27:18,180 --> 00:27:15,890
interesting for habitability yeah so at

683
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:18,190
the beginning of this session about

684
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:20,810
hydrothermal systems and water rock

685
00:27:26,770 --> 00:27:23,360
interactions providing food for life

686
00:27:30,670 --> 00:27:26,780
well you can't pump reductants into the

687
00:27:32,020 --> 00:27:30,680
ocean if if you have ice preventing

688
00:27:35,620 --> 00:27:32,030
water rock interactions from happening

689
00:27:36,730 --> 00:27:35,630
it seems from this recent work on fluids

690
00:27:38,410 --> 00:27:36,740
flowing within the high-pressure ice

691
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:38,420
that even if you don't have an ocean

692
00:27:42,370 --> 00:27:41,090
underneath the ice water rocky

693
00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:42,380
interactions will create some of them

694
00:27:46,660 --> 00:27:44,750
out of melt and fluids will make their

695
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:46,670
way through the ice regardless because

696
00:27:50,590 --> 00:27:48,290
the fluids that are formed will be less

697
00:27:51,820 --> 00:27:50,600
dense than the ice so maybe this is less

698
00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:51,830
of a problem than when people first

699
00:27:55,540 --> 00:27:53,600
thought but when we first discovered

700
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:55,550
Europa's ocean and then discovered

701
00:27:58,900 --> 00:27:57,530
enemies ocean around the same time the

702
00:27:59,950 --> 00:27:58,910
discussion on habitability was well

703
00:28:01,420 --> 00:27:59,960
obviously Europe is much more

704
00:28:03,610 --> 00:28:01,430
interesting we can't even think of life

705
00:28:05,980 --> 00:28:03,620
on Ganymede because the pressures are so

706
00:28:08,110 --> 00:28:05,990
high at the base of course prejudice now

707
00:28:12,460 --> 00:28:08,120
at the base also present problems for

708
00:28:13,660 --> 00:28:12,470
life the high pressure environment the

709
00:28:15,790 --> 00:28:13,670
environment bottom of the Marianas

710
00:28:17,770 --> 00:28:15,800
Trench presents challenges or many

711
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:17,780
organisms they have to adapt to those

712
00:28:22,780 --> 00:28:19,970
high pressures to make sure their

713
00:28:25,290 --> 00:28:22,790
proteins don't be nature and so there

714
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:25,300
there's a set of obligate Barrow files

715
00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:27,170
organisms that are required to live at

716
00:28:30,870 --> 00:28:28,310
high pressure because most where they've

717
00:28:32,860 --> 00:28:30,880
adapted the web so we can imagine

718
00:28:35,170 --> 00:28:32,870
similar strategies perhaps being

719
00:28:36,490 --> 00:28:35,180
employed even at in the high pressure

720
00:28:38,890 --> 00:28:36,500
environment at the bottom of Europa's

721
00:28:43,150 --> 00:28:38,900
ocean but it's weird think we're gonna

722
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:43,160
live it in high pressure ice and I think

723
00:28:47,530 --> 00:28:44,330
there's a lot more experimental work

724
00:28:48,610 --> 00:28:47,540
that needs to be done to understand what

725
00:28:51,130 --> 00:28:48,620
kind of limitations

726
00:28:54,159 --> 00:28:51,140
high pressure ices and high pressure

727
00:28:58,239 --> 00:28:54,169
environment to create for life so

728
00:29:01,810 --> 00:28:58,249
pressurize does not exist on earth so

729
00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:01,820
how do you create it in the lab you just

730
00:29:10,060 --> 00:29:07,609
squeeze really hard if you look at you

731
00:29:13,299 --> 00:29:10,070
look at the Wikipedia for water you can

732
00:29:14,739 --> 00:29:13,309
see a phase diagram or for water and you

733
00:29:16,239 --> 00:29:14,749
can see a region of pressure and

734
00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:16,249
temperature where water is liquid and

735
00:29:21,099 --> 00:29:19,129
then as you increase the pressure you

736
00:29:23,049 --> 00:29:21,109
get to this high pressure fit the reason

737
00:29:24,909 --> 00:29:23,059
you don't get high pressure phases on

738
00:29:26,109 --> 00:29:24,919
earth is that they form a relatively low

739
00:29:27,849 --> 00:29:26,119
temperature so they form at room

740
00:29:29,649 --> 00:29:27,859
temperature but by the time you get into

741
00:29:32,019 --> 00:29:29,659
Earth's interior to pressures where you

742
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:32,029
put any high pressure ices you've gotten

743
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:35,210
way above room temperature and so that's

744
00:29:37,930 --> 00:29:36,320
the only reason they don't form in

745
00:29:40,659 --> 00:29:37,940
nature in fact there have been

746
00:29:42,190 --> 00:29:40,669
suggestions that ice 3 is formed in

747
00:29:45,299 --> 00:29:42,200
certain places in Earth's mantle where

748
00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:45,309
you have subducting slabs and that

749
00:29:52,090 --> 00:29:49,190
nature paper recently it's not confirmed

750
00:29:54,669 --> 00:29:52,100
an interesting finding but but yeah it's

751
00:29:56,769 --> 00:29:54,679
easy enough easy enough to to create

752
00:29:59,409 --> 00:29:56,779
those pressures in the lab and to make

753
00:30:00,430 --> 00:29:59,419
pipe right there are things I just want

754
00:30:01,930 --> 00:30:00,440
to talk a little bit about that

755
00:30:04,869 --> 00:30:01,940
experiment because you have to take two

756
00:30:07,090 --> 00:30:04,879
small diamonds and compress them and

757
00:30:08,919 --> 00:30:07,100
it's that very small zone in between the

758
00:30:10,180 --> 00:30:08,929
diamond anvils that you can reach those

759
00:30:15,099 --> 00:30:10,190
really high pressures which is an

760
00:30:20,409 --> 00:30:15,109
awesome experiment the big Frankenstein

761
00:30:21,729 --> 00:30:20,419
thing that I built so there I had I

762
00:30:25,239 --> 00:30:21,739
didn't have diamonds I had sapphire

763
00:30:27,489 --> 00:30:25,249
windows and I had a series of overing

764
00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:27,499
they created the pressure seal and I

765
00:30:31,450 --> 00:30:29,600
pumped fluid into the food rod and one

766
00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:31,460
advantages in doing that and experiment

767
00:30:35,049 --> 00:30:33,529
the other Creators volume so you're less

768
00:30:37,419 --> 00:30:35,059
subject to errors and I bring out the

769
00:30:40,090 --> 00:30:37,429
chemistry and you're measuring the bulk

770
00:30:42,489 --> 00:30:40,100
properties of a bigger sample yes to be

771
00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:42,499
sure to make it make the higher pressure

772
00:30:48,849 --> 00:30:45,529
Isis or even 96 I was able to make an

773
00:30:51,879 --> 00:30:48,859
optical system I yeah I reliably did

774
00:30:54,909 --> 00:30:51,889
that but if you want to study conditions

775
00:30:59,710 --> 00:30:54,919
in Ganymede's deeper interior or

776
00:31:02,379 --> 00:30:59,720
occurring in Afghan Amit's you need

777
00:31:05,139 --> 00:31:02,389
diamond Endel sha and so that's taking

778
00:31:08,170 --> 00:31:05,149
two dem quality diamonds with very flat

779
00:31:09,790 --> 00:31:08,180
faces and making an anvil out of them

780
00:31:11,590 --> 00:31:09,800
yeah and you make this little basket

781
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:11,600
with a space that a couple hundred

782
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:13,850
microns across they made this very small

783
00:31:18,490 --> 00:31:16,370
volume of fluid and then you to squeeze

784
00:31:19,780 --> 00:31:18,500
you use their please screw the Diamonds

785
00:31:22,090 --> 00:31:19,790
together so they get closer together

786
00:31:23,980 --> 00:31:22,100
they pressurize the fluid and you can

787
00:31:26,110 --> 00:31:23,990
generate pressure if you don't put food

788
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:26,120
then he put solids in it's the way the

789
00:31:38,980 --> 00:31:28,490
city brought you can he can reach 200

790
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:38,990
EPA 40,000 atmosphere a lot of pressure

791
00:31:46,330 --> 00:31:43,490
very high yeah very high so with my unit

792
00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:46,340
current but yeah the pressures that

793
00:31:53,550 --> 00:31:47,360
we're concerned with her more than the

794
00:31:55,540 --> 00:31:53,560
one ETA 5 so 10,000 atmosphere above

795
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:55,550
very cool well your job sounds

796
00:31:59,170 --> 00:31:57,650
absolutely awesome Steve we could talk

797
00:32:00,580 --> 00:31:59,180
forever as we usually do but I would

798
00:32:02,020 --> 00:32:00,590
like to open it up for questions from

799
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:02,030
the audience so again if you're

800
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:04,640
listening live and you're on Twitter

801
00:32:09,190 --> 00:32:07,010
please use hash tag ask Astro bio to ask

802
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:09,200
us question and if you're on the

803
00:32:13,630 --> 00:32:11,450
signature org main chat room type it

804
00:32:16,930 --> 00:32:13,640
directly in chat window so the first

805
00:32:19,570 --> 00:32:16,940
question is by Michael Wong who asks via

806
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:19,580
Twitter so life emerge on earth billions

807
00:32:24,310 --> 00:32:21,650
of years ago when our planet was a very

808
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:24,320
different place that's very true can you

809
00:32:27,550 --> 00:32:26,210
steeply speculate on how Europe I would

810
00:32:29,650 --> 00:32:27,560
have been different four billion years

811
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:29,660
ago and how that would have influenced

812
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:31,490
its habitability and its potential for

813
00:32:43,780 --> 00:32:38,810
an origin of life so I think was very

814
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:43,790
reducing four billion years ago and so

815
00:32:47,980 --> 00:32:45,250
oxygen was a later invention and that

816
00:32:51,940 --> 00:32:47,990
oxygen was a poison for every organism

817
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:51,950
event we found submerged in it became

818
00:32:57,010 --> 00:32:54,890
more abundant on earth similarly it's

819
00:32:59,740 --> 00:32:57,020
expected that Europa formed as a

820
00:33:02,680 --> 00:32:59,750
reducing world perhaps similar to how

821
00:33:04,390 --> 00:33:02,690
Enceladus is today we have measurements

822
00:33:06,970 --> 00:33:04,400
of the plumes of them Selatan suggest

823
00:33:09,130 --> 00:33:06,980
the ph of those three the ocean and

824
00:33:13,410 --> 00:33:09,140
intelligence between nine and eleven so

825
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:13,420
high pH means very basic fluids and

826
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:16,490
pretty basic when it when it formed as

827
00:33:21,910 --> 00:33:20,210
well and to the extent that that

828
00:33:24,310 --> 00:33:21,920
provided conditions for my

829
00:33:27,370 --> 00:33:24,320
to arrive on earth perhaps that was also

830
00:33:30,610 --> 00:33:27,380
perfectly fine for Europa there's

831
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:30,620
discussion and debate about how much

832
00:33:35,380 --> 00:33:33,050
oxygen rich material is imported to

833
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:35,390
Europa's ocean from the surface and over

834
00:33:41,980 --> 00:33:37,490
time whether that would have outweighed

835
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:41,990
the reducing materials and so the field

836
00:33:46,510 --> 00:33:44,810
of Europa system science or you consider

837
00:33:49,420 --> 00:33:46,520
the the fluxes of different reductants

838
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:49,430
and oxidants you can construct scenarios

839
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:51,890
where either Europa ended up oxygen-rich

840
00:33:59,680 --> 00:33:55,130
or stayed and introduced state

841
00:34:01,780 --> 00:33:59,690
I think either either of those outcomes

842
00:34:05,980 --> 00:34:01,790
would be amenable to different kinds of

843
00:34:07,450 --> 00:34:05,990
life it's just a question of what what

844
00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:07,460
types of what types of organisms you

845
00:34:12,580 --> 00:34:10,250
could imagine being in Europa I think

846
00:34:13,990 --> 00:34:12,590
it's safe to presume that the origin of

847
00:34:16,450 --> 00:34:14,000
life if it occurred on Europa might

848
00:34:18,550 --> 00:34:16,460
happen in a reducing environment that

849
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:18,560
then gets into questions about whether

850
00:34:23,830 --> 00:34:21,440
hydrothermal systems were the plates

851
00:34:25,240 --> 00:34:23,840
that life could have emerged there are

852
00:34:30,220 --> 00:34:25,250
some in the field of origin of life who

853
00:34:31,810 --> 00:34:30,230
suppose at continents or at least some

854
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:31,820
of the liquid gas interface is were

855
00:34:41,430 --> 00:34:34,810
required similar to what's behind Sanjoy

856
00:34:45,370 --> 00:34:41,440
and and so that that's an interesting

857
00:34:48,220 --> 00:34:45,380
topic of debate and and I guess to the

858
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:48,230
extent that that's your hope it becomes

859
00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:50,450
a place to test that hypothesis if we

860
00:34:56,110 --> 00:34:52,250
can confirm but there wasn't independent

861
00:34:57,490 --> 00:34:56,120
origin of life on your perhaps we don't

862
00:34:59,230 --> 00:34:57,500
rule out those hypotheses that

863
00:35:01,210 --> 00:34:59,240
continents are a good place for life to

864
00:35:03,370 --> 00:35:01,220
form but we would probably provide

865
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:03,380
support for a hydrothermal origin of

866
00:35:08,620 --> 00:35:06,890
life hypothesis Mary Cole thank you

867
00:35:11,890 --> 00:35:08,630
Michael for that question next one is by

868
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:11,900
Andrew Smith who asked via Twitter when

869
00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:14,240
do you suspect we will find life on

870
00:35:22,770 --> 00:35:18,160
another planet so okay this is a wager

871
00:35:27,340 --> 00:35:22,780
and it's a wager for me between

872
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:27,350
exoplanets and ocean worlds though I'm

873
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:29,330
more confident lately that Mars might

874
00:35:32,860 --> 00:35:31,370
have entered the running if we believe

875
00:35:35,260 --> 00:35:32,870
the radar result it was published a

876
00:35:39,609 --> 00:35:35,270
couple weeks ago I mean

877
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:39,619
so I'm hopeful that in the next 20 years

878
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:42,170
we could we could find life and that's

879
00:35:45,150 --> 00:35:43,490
just speculating on the kinds of

880
00:35:47,170 --> 00:35:45,160
missions that might come from to bear

881
00:35:49,330 --> 00:35:47,180
there's a lot that can happen in 20

882
00:35:51,070 --> 00:35:49,340
years and having been involved with your

883
00:35:53,220 --> 00:35:51,080
OPA clipper for a while I understand

884
00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:53,230
that planning missions is complicated

885
00:35:57,370 --> 00:35:55,910
but you know but being involved Europa

886
00:35:59,070 --> 00:35:57,380
clipper I also have a lot of hope for

887
00:36:01,690 --> 00:35:59,080
the kinds of measurements we can make

888
00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:01,700
first and understanding the context or

889
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:03,440
habitability better and ultimately in

890
00:36:09,370 --> 00:36:07,490
searching for light come on thank you

891
00:36:12,310 --> 00:36:09,380
for that next question again via

892
00:36:14,350 --> 00:36:12,320
Twitter's by Kochi who asks how do

893
00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:14,360
seismic systems work on the surface of

894
00:36:19,420 --> 00:36:16,910
ice such as on Europa where there might

895
00:36:20,890 --> 00:36:19,430
be no connection to a rocky core because

896
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:20,900
the waves don't travel through water

897
00:36:27,490 --> 00:36:24,410
right well so leaves travel through

898
00:36:30,850 --> 00:36:27,500
water however so the different types of

899
00:36:34,540 --> 00:36:30,860
waves basically are compressional so

900
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:34,550
like a slinky compressing so those are

901
00:36:37,660 --> 00:36:36,170
called P waves and then the other one is

902
00:36:42,550 --> 00:36:37,670
shear waves we can do this for this link

903
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:42,560
here we can do it to the hose so the

904
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:45,890
shear waves don't work in liquids and so

905
00:36:51,580 --> 00:36:48,410
yeah if you want to study the interior

906
00:36:53,170 --> 00:36:51,590
of Europa or another ocean world the

907
00:36:58,900 --> 00:36:53,180
ocean cuts out a lot of the information

908
00:37:00,970 --> 00:36:58,910
that you want but the the P waves that

909
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:00,980
transmitted through the ice into the

910
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:03,200
ocean into the rock and then convert

911
00:37:10,060 --> 00:37:06,170
into shear waves and to combinations of

912
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:10,070
here and and professional waves and so

913
00:37:14,859 --> 00:37:12,650
it's a different type of seismology the

914
00:37:16,780 --> 00:37:14,869
technology generally works in the same

915
00:37:19,620 --> 00:37:16,790
way that it does on earth you just have

916
00:37:21,970 --> 00:37:19,630
to do a different type of predictive

917
00:37:23,859 --> 00:37:21,980
backtracking to understand what you're

918
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:23,869
measuring and certainly measuring in one

919
00:37:27,730 --> 00:37:26,690
place is difficult but that's something

920
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:27,740
that the insight mission will be doing

921
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:29,930
at Mars starting when it lands in event

922
00:37:35,590 --> 00:37:33,050
on November 26 a little plug there and

923
00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:35,600
and I'll mention as part of these papers

924
00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:36,560
that Sanjaya mentioned we had a

925
00:37:42,790 --> 00:37:38,510
companion paper by it led by Simon's

926
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:42,800
Taylor who is now at ETH Zurich there's

927
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:44,450
a really great academic paper in terms

928
00:37:48,820 --> 00:37:46,970
of proposing naming conventions for the

929
00:37:49,060 --> 00:37:48,830
different types of seismic waves that

930
00:37:51,660 --> 00:37:49,070
would

931
00:37:54,370 --> 00:37:51,670
unique to ocean worlds because of this

932
00:37:56,470 --> 00:37:54,380
ice ocean solid interface that would

933
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:56,480
occur and and I can point out

934
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:00,160
furthermore if we want to understand the

935
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:02,090
existence of high-pressure ices and

936
00:38:05,530 --> 00:38:04,130
layering and thickness of those ices I

937
00:38:07,390 --> 00:38:05,540
think in seismology is the only way

938
00:38:09,340 --> 00:38:07,400
we're gonna do that so I really look

939
00:38:11,980 --> 00:38:09,350
forward to to developing that in the

940
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:11,990
future as well that's cool and dislike

941
00:38:15,580 --> 00:38:13,970
of transmission of P waves in liquids is

942
00:38:18,490 --> 00:38:15,590
how we discovered that Earth has a

943
00:38:20,050 --> 00:38:18,500
liquid core above the center core of

944
00:38:22,630 --> 00:38:20,060
course which is really cool so

945
00:38:27,580 --> 00:38:22,640
seismology is a very efficient way to

946
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:27,590
probe the the deep interior of worlds on

947
00:38:31,900 --> 00:38:29,210
following on the on the seismology

948
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:31,910
question and on the Martian Lake that

949
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:34,400
was recently discovered Marian Denton

950
00:38:39,610 --> 00:38:37,490
via Facebook live asks you mentioned

951
00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:39,620
using a seismometer to sense wave action

952
00:38:43,630 --> 00:38:41,510
below ice sheets with the newly

953
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:43,640
announced Lake at Mars a South South

954
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:45,680
Pole be large enough to test that on and

955
00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:47,330
also has this been tested on earth

956
00:38:54,610 --> 00:38:49,910
analog sites for example Lake Vostok in

957
00:38:56,050 --> 00:38:54,620
Antarctica so the answer to the Mars

958
00:38:58,480 --> 00:38:56,060
questions I don't know

959
00:39:02,170 --> 00:38:58,490
and I I also don't know if this has been

960
00:39:04,810 --> 00:39:02,180
studied in the context of Lake Vostok or

961
00:39:09,610 --> 00:39:04,820
other sublation lakes what's really

962
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:09,620
interesting about ocean acoustics or

963
00:39:12,970 --> 00:39:11,690
seismology this was recently

964
00:39:15,310 --> 00:39:12,980
demonstrated to me by a colleague here

965
00:39:17,890 --> 00:39:15,320
at JPL you take a modern sensitive

966
00:39:19,870 --> 00:39:17,900
hydrometer and put it on a tabletop at

967
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:19,880
JPL or I saw it demonstrated or in

968
00:39:24,490 --> 00:39:22,850
Colorado the middle of the continent one

969
00:39:27,910 --> 00:39:24,500
of the persistent signals that you see

970
00:39:29,470 --> 00:39:27,920
is the transmission of breaking waves on

971
00:39:31,150 --> 00:39:29,480
the coast transmitting all the way

972
00:39:34,570 --> 00:39:31,160
across the continent so you can see

973
00:39:38,260 --> 00:39:34,580
Earth's ocean seismically anywhere and

974
00:39:41,110 --> 00:39:38,270
so and so our inspiration at Europa was

975
00:39:43,770 --> 00:39:41,120
to consider the analog of turbulent

976
00:39:45,970 --> 00:39:43,780
waves underneath underneath the ice and

977
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:45,980
so the assumption in that that was in a

978
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:49,610
paper by Mark Anning is that is that the

979
00:39:54,820 --> 00:39:52,640
oceans are the characteristic ocean wave

980
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:54,830
speed can be close to a meter per second

981
00:39:58,930 --> 00:39:57,050
and the ocean is turbulent and has a lot

982
00:40:00,490 --> 00:39:58,940
of energy in it that's a discussion

983
00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:00,500
about fluid dynamics in your position

984
00:40:04,510 --> 00:40:02,720
that hasn't been fully resolved

985
00:40:05,710 --> 00:40:04,520
it's fun that our work is touching on a

986
00:40:08,410 --> 00:40:05,720
lot of different active fields of

987
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:08,420
research in your robot yeah absolutely

988
00:40:13,839 --> 00:40:11,450
your board touches on what the plat the

989
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:13,849
moon is made out of its talks about can

990
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:15,920
contribute to the discussion on ocean

991
00:40:20,170 --> 00:40:18,530
convection on habitability or the

992
00:40:24,190 --> 00:40:20,180
essence of an astrobiologist is oozing

993
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:26,050
the next question coming from the Signet

994
00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:29,210
main chat from richard gordon asks do

995
00:40:37,330 --> 00:40:34,910
all ices sinter that is a geology

996
00:40:41,710 --> 00:40:37,340
question and although i got a degree in

997
00:40:45,130 --> 00:40:41,720
a geology department i never did any any

998
00:40:47,859 --> 00:40:45,140
centering myself but so sin during is

999
00:40:50,890 --> 00:40:47,869
sorting out by grain sizes and to my

1000
00:40:54,930 --> 00:40:50,900
understanding or breaking off of

1001
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:54,940
crystals into smaller fragments and I

1002
00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:56,930
don't know if that's been done with

1003
00:41:02,260 --> 00:40:58,130
high-pressure ices there were some

1004
00:41:04,990 --> 00:41:02,270
experiments in the 70s where a Canadian

1005
00:41:06,490 --> 00:41:05,000
group claimed to have created I six and

1006
00:41:08,890 --> 00:41:06,500
then rapidly be pressurized at low

1007
00:41:13,150 --> 00:41:08,900
temperature and had quenched I six I

1008
00:41:15,220 --> 00:41:13,160
suppose you could centre that I'm not

1009
00:41:17,050 --> 00:41:15,230
sure what the application would be and

1010
00:41:18,609 --> 00:41:17,060
it's important to emphasize that high

1011
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:18,619
pressure ices where they would occur in

1012
00:41:23,140 --> 00:41:20,330
nature in the original worlds would

1013
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:23,150
always be surrounded and so liquid would

1014
00:41:30,190 --> 00:41:27,530
would become interspersed anywhere that

1015
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:30,200
any kind of fracturing would occur I

1016
00:41:33,940 --> 00:41:32,330
think I think your question is getting

1017
00:41:35,710 --> 00:41:33,950
us something kind of profound but I

1018
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:35,720
don't really have an answer to it

1019
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:36,650
someone to think a little more about

1020
00:41:42,820 --> 00:41:40,490
fracturing and high-pressure - thank you

1021
00:41:45,450 --> 00:41:42,830
Richard next question is by Nitin who

1022
00:41:48,099 --> 00:41:45,460
asked via Twitter how reliable is it

1023
00:41:51,690 --> 00:41:48,109
working on microbes in certain hazing

1024
00:41:56,859 --> 00:41:51,700
systems on earth - that on exoplanets

1025
00:42:00,040 --> 00:41:56,869
okay so the other bummer about Ganymede

1026
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:00,050
and Titan at least from my simple

1027
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:03,170
modeling of the rocket interaction is

1028
00:42:08,380 --> 00:42:05,570
that if you expect fracturing to occur

1029
00:42:10,359 --> 00:42:08,390
from cooling of the rock and if pressure

1030
00:42:14,170 --> 00:42:10,369
has a role in closing down any fractures

1031
00:42:16,510 --> 00:42:14,180
that occur Ganymede and Titan and

1032
00:42:18,820 --> 00:42:16,520
Callisto have such high pressure that

1033
00:42:20,109 --> 00:42:18,830
closed really efficiently and from that

1034
00:42:22,690 --> 00:42:20,119
standpoint you wouldn't have a lot of

1035
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:22,700
water outer lock water rock interaction

1036
00:42:29,620 --> 00:42:27,410
I because I have a concern about this

1037
00:42:31,780 --> 00:42:29,630
and I want to I want to believe that

1038
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:31,790
that water I contractions can occur in

1039
00:42:36,370 --> 00:42:33,890
these objects I think about other ways

1040
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:36,380
that Tektronix might occur and that's

1041
00:42:39,460 --> 00:42:37,610
something I've been discussing with a

1042
00:42:42,609 --> 00:42:39,470
colleague Paul Byrne who studies

1043
00:42:45,609 --> 00:42:42,619
Tektronix and so he comes ahead of a

1044
00:42:48,430 --> 00:42:45,619
different way he also has sort of plum

1045
00:42:51,430 --> 00:42:48,440
news about fracturing but maybe there

1046
00:42:53,380 --> 00:42:51,440
are other ways that rocks in Center and

1047
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:53,390
you can create more surface area for

1048
00:43:01,410 --> 00:42:58,330
water rock interaction but the fact that

1049
00:43:03,580 --> 00:43:01,420
Titan has this methane rich atmosphere

1050
00:43:05,740 --> 00:43:03,590
suggests that water rock interactions

1051
00:43:07,980 --> 00:43:05,750
have occurred at some point and the fact

1052
00:43:10,630 --> 00:43:07,990
that Titan is a load in for the object

1053
00:43:12,250 --> 00:43:10,640
it seems like there's currently not any

1054
00:43:14,590 --> 00:43:12,260
way to explain the low density of Titans

1055
00:43:17,020 --> 00:43:14,600
interior without invoking hydrated rock

1056
00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:17,030
and so that to me suggests water rock

1057
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:19,520
interactions occurring okay so what that

1058
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:21,130
says is that my model is simple and

1059
00:43:27,340 --> 00:43:25,970
needs to become less simple it's

1060
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:27,350
important to start with the model as

1061
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:29,090
well constraints and by model again we

1062
00:43:36,220 --> 00:43:32,690
mean computer simulations Tom Caruso

1063
00:43:38,020 --> 00:43:36,230
asks via Facebook the so far channel so

1064
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:38,030
the sound fixing and ranging channel

1065
00:43:42,310 --> 00:43:40,250
here on earth acts like a horizontal

1066
00:43:44,650 --> 00:43:42,320
pipe organ in our oceans allowing sound

1067
00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:44,660
waves to travel great distances do you

1068
00:43:54,540 --> 00:43:46,430
think a so far channel would exist in a

1069
00:44:01,090 --> 00:43:58,450
yeah this is intriguing yeah it's this

1070
00:44:04,030 --> 00:44:01,100
inversion channel you know whales use it

1071
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:04,040
to communicate around the world it's a

1072
00:44:08,140 --> 00:44:06,530
really romantic idea but my

1073
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:08,150
understanding is that so far channel

1074
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:10,250
occurs because Earth's ocean is heated

1075
00:44:17,410 --> 00:44:14,510
from above and so my assumption is that

1076
00:44:19,030 --> 00:44:17,420
the sound speed profile so it's mp4 file

1077
00:44:22,270 --> 00:44:19,040
for Earth is this thing where it it

1078
00:44:23,859 --> 00:44:22,280
decreases and then and so the so far

1079
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:23,869
channel is that is that inversion point

1080
00:44:28,780 --> 00:44:25,910
and so sound waves that starts in that

1081
00:44:30,430 --> 00:44:28,790
in that inflection zone it's gets

1082
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:30,440
diffracted back into the

1083
00:44:36,010 --> 00:44:32,690
the so far Channel whether it channels

1084
00:44:38,289 --> 00:44:36,020
up or down but if the sound speed is

1085
00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:38,299
increasing uniformly in the ocean which

1086
00:44:42,010 --> 00:44:39,760
you would expect if the ocean is just

1087
00:44:44,650 --> 00:44:42,020
the temperature profile of the ocean is

1088
00:44:48,609 --> 00:44:44,660
uniform then there would not be a so far

1089
00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:48,619
Channel that's great explanations

1090
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:55,420
Jinna Kochi again asks could you say

1091
00:44:57,849 --> 00:44:56,450
something about international

1092
00:44:59,440 --> 00:44:57,859
collaboration and astrobiology

1093
00:45:05,289 --> 00:44:59,450
particularly perhaps for the Europa

1094
00:45:08,819 --> 00:45:05,299
clipper mission an all in favour of

1095
00:45:14,140 --> 00:45:08,829
international collaboration astrobiology

1096
00:45:18,010 --> 00:45:14,150
so the Clipper in particular we are just

1097
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:18,020
beginning to formally talk to the juice

1098
00:45:22,329 --> 00:45:20,480
mission it's the Jupiter icy satellite

1099
00:45:24,270 --> 00:45:22,339
Explorer mission that's led by ISA so

1100
00:45:28,299 --> 00:45:24,280
they're going to orbit the enemy

1101
00:45:29,859 --> 00:45:28,309
starting around 2030 it's possible that

1102
00:45:32,620 --> 00:45:29,869
your clipper will be around at that time

1103
00:45:34,660 --> 00:45:32,630
as well their goal is not just to

1104
00:45:37,089 --> 00:45:34,670
explore Ganymede though but to flyby

1105
00:45:38,620 --> 00:45:37,099
Europe a couple times to fly by Callisto

1106
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:38,630
and also to understand Jupiter in its

1107
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:41,690
environment and so in that sense there's

1108
00:45:48,910 --> 00:45:44,930
a great chance for ISA and NASA

1109
00:45:50,620 --> 00:45:48,920
scientists to collaborate to join their

1110
00:45:54,099 --> 00:45:50,630
data together to make synergistic

1111
00:45:56,410 --> 00:45:54,109
results so in that sense there's a great

1112
00:45:59,289 --> 00:45:56,420
collaboration happening astrobiology is

1113
00:46:01,420 --> 00:45:59,299
inherently collaborative I've enjoyed in

1114
00:46:03,519 --> 00:46:01,430
my time working at JPL specific

1115
00:46:06,490 --> 00:46:03,529
particularly collaborating with the root

1116
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:06,500
LC in Tokyo and so this is a group

1117
00:46:13,299 --> 00:46:10,010
that's largely interested in Earth's

1118
00:46:14,799 --> 00:46:13,309
interior and planetary interiors and has

1119
00:46:16,450 --> 00:46:14,809
really great expertise in that in

1120
00:46:19,779 --> 00:46:16,460
particular but also in hydrothermal

1121
00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:19,789
systems and so I think it's really

1122
00:46:24,430 --> 00:46:21,529
important for scientists but especially

1123
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:24,440
for astrobiologists to visit and

1124
00:46:28,779 --> 00:46:27,049
exchange information and perspectives so

1125
00:46:31,990 --> 00:46:28,789
we could challenge each other and come

1126
00:46:35,170 --> 00:46:32,000
up with new ideas that's very romantic

1127
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:35,180
way of putting it I would agree 100% so

1128
00:46:39,010 --> 00:46:37,250
on Sagan and we often have early career

1129
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:39,020
individuals who are excited about sure

1130
00:46:42,730 --> 00:46:40,970
biology but not quite sure know how to

1131
00:46:44,140 --> 00:46:42,740
get into the discipline what kind of

1132
00:46:46,540 --> 00:46:44,150
advice would you have for

1133
00:46:50,890 --> 00:46:46,550
upcoming astrobiologists and how to get

1134
00:46:52,930 --> 00:46:50,900
involved with with with science well so

1135
00:46:54,190 --> 00:46:52,940
so if you're a grad student in that

1136
00:46:57,300 --> 00:46:54,200
since you're not putting astrobiology

1137
00:47:01,480 --> 00:46:57,310
you thought rubella just go to apps icon

1138
00:47:03,610 --> 00:47:01,490
if you're a chance grad through the apps

1139
00:47:05,740 --> 00:47:03,620
icon which is the astrobiology science

1140
00:47:07,690 --> 00:47:05,750
conference which happens every two years

1141
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:07,700
and next year we'll be in Bellevue

1142
00:47:12,190 --> 00:47:09,130
Washington

1143
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:12,200
so I look forward to revisiting old time

1144
00:47:20,110 --> 00:47:15,770
with us and right at icon thank you I

1145
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:20,120
hope that happens anyway but the other I

1146
00:47:23,950 --> 00:47:21,680
guess the other thing so networking is

1147
00:47:25,450 --> 00:47:23,960
important that's what I'm saying you

1148
00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:25,460
know short of going to a conference you

1149
00:47:30,490 --> 00:47:28,310
can seek out mentors professors don't

1150
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:30,500
get that many emails they'd be happy to

1151
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:32,810
talk about that research and they're

1152
00:47:35,860 --> 00:47:34,490
actually pretty approachable I would say

1153
00:47:37,150 --> 00:47:35,870
a mistake that I made as an

1154
00:47:39,580 --> 00:47:37,160
undergraduate was to be afraid of

1155
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:39,590
talking to professor's because I thought

1156
00:47:44,470 --> 00:47:42,050
they were this unobtainable level of

1157
00:47:47,350 --> 00:47:44,480
knowledge you know the first my family

1158
00:47:50,260 --> 00:47:47,360
to get a PhD so I didn't have a role

1159
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:50,270
model in that sense so that's a big

1160
00:47:53,140 --> 00:47:52,130
thing and the other thing is you know

1161
00:47:56,980 --> 00:47:53,150
taking a lot of different classes

1162
00:47:59,680 --> 00:47:56,990
getting exposed to geology biology

1163
00:48:04,270 --> 00:47:59,690
chemistry you know the fundamentals but

1164
00:48:06,450 --> 00:48:04,280
also then learning about the this book

1165
00:48:10,780 --> 00:48:06,460
throughout of those so oceanography

1166
00:48:13,690 --> 00:48:10,790
marine biology that sort of I'm glad you

1167
00:48:14,730 --> 00:48:13,700
mentioned the mentoring aspect chrysalis

1168
00:48:17,740 --> 00:48:14,740
pups

1169
00:48:23,170 --> 00:48:17,750
who-who are your mentors and how did

1170
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:23,180
they help you well yeah I mentioned this

1171
00:48:27,930 --> 00:48:25,010
this colleague from the internship so

1172
00:48:31,510 --> 00:48:27,940
you can have informal mentors as well

1173
00:48:35,890 --> 00:48:31,520
people who inspire you and I mentioned

1174
00:48:38,230 --> 00:48:35,900
Carl Sagan also a conformal mentor you

1175
00:48:39,850 --> 00:48:38,240
know I I came to JPL to be honest as I

1176
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:39,860
was following Bob Pappalardo is the

1177
00:48:44,980 --> 00:48:42,770
project scientist for for the flipper I

1178
00:48:46,660 --> 00:48:44,990
originally thought I would go to Boulder

1179
00:48:49,570 --> 00:48:46,670
where he was at the time and then he got

1180
00:48:50,770 --> 00:48:49,580
a job here you know so now since I

1181
00:48:52,300 --> 00:48:50,780
wasn't even really strategically

1182
00:48:53,260 --> 00:48:52,310
targeting figure of a mission I just

1183
00:48:54,940 --> 00:48:53,270
thought you're someone that I want to

1184
00:48:58,030 --> 00:48:54,950
work with this seems to do good science

1185
00:49:02,770 --> 00:48:58,040
and also seems to be thinking and

1186
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:02,780
and everyone thinks but but I don't know

1187
00:49:06,550 --> 00:49:05,090
he's careful in a way that I relate to I

1188
00:49:12,100 --> 00:49:06,560
think finding mentors that you relate to

1189
00:49:14,830 --> 00:49:12,110
is it's really important I don't know

1190
00:49:17,020 --> 00:49:14,840
I'm the model where you have a committee

1191
00:49:18,940 --> 00:49:17,030
and I was constantly checking in with my

1192
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:18,950
committee members I love changing

1193
00:49:25,660 --> 00:49:21,170
committee members as identify people who

1194
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:25,670
I wanted to learn from you know so so

1195
00:49:31,050 --> 00:49:28,210
that's all that's all really important

1196
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:31,060
what else can I say about my personal

1197
00:49:35,260 --> 00:49:33,650
mentor experiences

1198
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:35,270
well I'll mention that as an

1199
00:49:39,010 --> 00:49:36,650
undergraduate I did an undergraduate

1200
00:49:40,690 --> 00:49:39,020
thesis so I built an experiment and I

1201
00:49:44,350 --> 00:49:40,700
measured the stickiness of methanol

1202
00:49:47,170 --> 00:49:44,360
frosts try to address how stuff came

1203
00:49:48,580 --> 00:49:47,180
together in the early solar nebula on a

1204
00:49:51,010 --> 00:49:48,590
length scale of greater than a

1205
00:49:53,260 --> 00:49:51,020
centimeter but less than you know meters

1206
00:49:55,690 --> 00:49:53,270
where gravity starts become important um

1207
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:55,700
so anyway I mentor there was Frank but

1208
00:50:00,730 --> 00:49:57,890
Bridges who was he was mainly interested

1209
00:50:02,350 --> 00:50:00,740
in magneto resistance and building new

1210
00:50:06,670 --> 00:50:02,360
hard drives but he had this side project

1211
00:50:08,530 --> 00:50:06,680
with Doug Linn on on you know Saturn's

1212
00:50:10,660 --> 00:50:08,540
Saturn's ring would be knew that much

1213
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:10,670
about at the time and speaking of stuff

1214
00:50:14,620 --> 00:50:12,650
in general so I've learned a lot of

1215
00:50:15,910 --> 00:50:14,630
experimental stuff from him he just said

1216
00:50:18,730 --> 00:50:15,920
usually here's the thing you should

1217
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:18,740
build and then I went and built it you

1218
00:50:23,980 --> 00:50:21,890
know gave me advice along the way and

1219
00:50:25,660 --> 00:50:23,990
you know he also can read about your

1220
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:25,670
papers and said read beads and so that

1221
00:50:30,100 --> 00:50:27,170
was more of a kind of a soft mentorship

1222
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:30,110
of like okay go and learn some stuff but

1223
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:31,970
he kept me motivated and that was that

1224
00:50:37,540 --> 00:50:34,010
was really important and pivotal in my

1225
00:50:39,100 --> 00:50:37,550
development very cool yeah I will echo

1226
00:50:40,810 --> 00:50:39,110
that advice of knocking on doors to

1227
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:40,820
people you admire is is a good way to

1228
00:50:45,580 --> 00:50:43,610
learn about how they got to feel and how

1229
00:50:48,430 --> 00:50:45,590
they can help you get into it so great

1230
00:50:50,350 --> 00:50:48,440
advice and we started this interview by

1231
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:50,360
talking about your participation as a

1232
00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:52,370
science advisor in the movie Europa

1233
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:55,520
report can you tell us of more about how

1234
00:51:05,230 --> 00:50:57,650
that was and working with with with

1235
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:05,240
Hollywood that was a unique experience

1236
00:51:11,950 --> 00:51:08,570
I've done I've done various consulting

1237
00:51:13,630 --> 00:51:11,960
things various levels of formality the

1238
00:51:14,770 --> 00:51:13,640
when most of those about in my

1239
00:51:20,820 --> 00:51:14,780
interaction with the science and

1240
00:51:25,150 --> 00:51:20,830
entertainment exchange which is a double

1241
00:51:28,930 --> 00:51:25,160
triple a has funded society that tries

1242
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:28,940
to connect scientists with filmmakers

1243
00:51:34,599 --> 00:51:32,330
and writers and video game producers to

1244
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:34,609
help with public understanding of

1245
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:38,930
science contrast europa report I just

1246
00:51:44,079 --> 00:51:42,170
met a producer of the would-be film when

1247
00:51:46,300 --> 00:51:44,089
I was volunteering at the JPL open house

1248
00:51:48,339 --> 00:51:46,310
they were looking for people to talk to

1249
00:51:50,980 --> 00:51:48,349
because Europa was just coming into the

1250
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:50,990
consciousness of filmmakers at the time

1251
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:51,770
there were actually a couple of

1252
00:51:55,839 --> 00:51:53,210
apparently a couple of Europa movie

1253
00:51:58,810 --> 00:51:55,849
concepts but yeah so for that I ended up

1254
00:52:01,089 --> 00:51:58,820
being connected directly with the writer

1255
00:52:03,099 --> 00:52:01,099
for the screenplay at that point they

1256
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:03,109
just had some money and they had a guy

1257
00:52:07,690 --> 00:52:05,450
who had a concept and I got to see a

1258
00:52:09,339 --> 00:52:07,700
very early version of the script and I

1259
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:09,349
got to talk to him mostly in the

1260
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:11,839
evenings after work you know from my

1261
00:52:19,050 --> 00:52:14,450
apartment by the phone this guy in New

1262
00:52:23,020 --> 00:52:19,060
York there I guess work late and I

1263
00:52:25,359 --> 00:52:23,030
suspect that my going through what's

1264
00:52:26,620 --> 00:52:25,369
cool about Europa and the fact that we

1265
00:52:29,140 --> 00:52:26,630
were talking about the science

1266
00:52:30,849 --> 00:52:29,150
definition team report for the Europa

1267
00:52:32,650 --> 00:52:30,859
clipper that we were going through many

1268
00:52:34,420 --> 00:52:32,660
states many iterations of studying

1269
00:52:37,780 --> 00:52:34,430
possible missions to Europe at that time

1270
00:52:39,940 --> 00:52:37,790
I suspect that led to the naming of the

1271
00:52:41,470 --> 00:52:39,950
movie as Europa report and in the theme

1272
00:52:44,740 --> 00:52:41,480
of the movie is very you know talking

1273
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:44,750
about Europa and why it's cool that was

1274
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:47,089
a cool it does need experience you know

1275
00:52:52,030 --> 00:52:49,970
he was we we had the chance later on

1276
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:52,040
Kevin Hamels brought in also as a

1277
00:52:56,260 --> 00:52:54,650
science adviser and so the three of us

1278
00:53:00,010 --> 00:52:56,270
got to go back and forth and talk about

1279
00:53:02,349 --> 00:53:00,020
fun science things like to be put in

1280
00:53:05,890 --> 00:53:02,359
that would fit would make the movie feel

1281
00:53:07,450 --> 00:53:05,900
more realistic you know so artificial

1282
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:07,460
gravity I think I'm having a rotating

1283
00:53:15,070 --> 00:53:14,570
spacecraft the dangers of hydrazine very

1284
00:53:17,260 --> 00:53:15,080
cool

1285
00:53:19,150 --> 00:53:17,270
Steve you leave a very exciting life

1286
00:53:21,130 --> 00:53:19,160
it's been a real privilege to talk to

1287
00:53:22,450 --> 00:53:21,140
you today we're right up time so if you

1288
00:53:23,950 --> 00:53:22,460
have more questions please don't

1289
00:53:25,359 --> 00:53:23,960
hesitate to reach out to Steve you can

1290
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:25,369
find him on Twitter at

1291
00:53:30,249 --> 00:53:28,729
at Steve underscore vents thanks again

1292
00:53:32,019 --> 00:53:30,259
this I know you're an extremely busy

1293
00:53:33,039 --> 00:53:32,029
scientist I've been clear from what

1294
00:53:34,329 --> 00:53:33,049
you've been talking about that you have

1295
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:34,339
your fingers and a lot of different

1296
00:53:39,130 --> 00:53:37,249
things so thank you again for speaking

1297
00:53:41,319 --> 00:53:39,140
with us please stay in touch with us out

1298
00:53:42,549 --> 00:53:41,329
here at asking astrobiologists for those

1299
00:53:44,559 --> 00:53:42,559
of you are watching don't forget the

1300
00:53:47,069 --> 00:53:44,569
background quiz will give you the answer

1301
00:53:48,780 --> 00:53:47,079
next week and until then stay curious